Episode 233. “I save while she spends on vacations. Is this fair?”

Samantha (36) and Kevin (41) have been together for seven years, but their financial lives couldn’t look more different. He’s a high earner with $800,000 in investments and a paid-down mortgage. She’s still carrying student loans, car payments, and lingering shame about being “behind.” While Kevin saves methodically for the future, Samantha prefers to spend on experiences—especially travel—leaving him questioning whether their financial priorities will ever align. Beneath the surface, neither of them has truly learned how to talk about money without shutting down. Can Ramit help them move from avoidance and resentment to shared goals and real plans for the future?

A special thanks to Ultraspeaking, who worked with Samantha and Kevin to help them communicate more effectively as a couple. Ultraspeaking is the fastest and most effective way to become a great communicator. Learn more at https://ultraspeaking.com.

In this episode we uncover:

• Why Samantha believes she’ll never be “financially good enough” for Kevin
• How their shared avoidant tendencies have allowed them to avoid financial planning for years
• How their unspoken expectations around “fairness” create tension
• Samantha’s logic for not paying rent or mortgage
• How Kevin’s quiet resentment built up after Samantha didn’t use the housing savings to pay down debt
• The real cost of their “guilt-free” spending, including $15,000/year on vacations
• Why Samantha still feels broke, despite earning $148,000 a year
• Samantha’s fears about not meeting Kevin’s expectations in retirement
• The stark contrast between their savings: Samantha has one month of expenses, Kevin has six
• How Samantha inherited a “spend it if you have it” mindset from her parents
• Kevin’s fear of loss from divorce and why he avoids fully committing financially
• The role of therapy in helping them rebuild communication and trust

Chapters:

(00:00:00) “I’ll never be financially good enough for Kevin”

(00:13:39) “I feel like I have no say because he owns the house”

(00:27:08) Ramit breaks down their numbers

(00:37:44) “I still feel like I’m only making $50,000”

(00:43:59) “Money burned a hole in my pocket”

(01:03:09) “That’s the bed I made and I will lie in it”

(01:08:25) “Closing doors is hard…but staying stuck is harder”

(01:15:59) “It’s not about catching up — it’s about building together”

(01:37:50) Where are they now? Samantha and Kevin’s follow-ups

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Transcript 

Download the full transcript PDF 

[00:00:00] Samantha: I just don't feel like a good or worthy partner.

[00:00:03] Ramit: What is stopping you from changing the situation that you are in?

[00:00:07] Samantha: I don't really want to stop going on vacations, and I--

[00:00:11] Ramit: That's an honest answer.

[00:00:13] Samantha: It feels more important that we have the experience than I have the money.

[00:00:18] Ramit: One of you has $4,000 a month to do whatever you want, while the other has $1,100 a month. It seems like it could be a problem.

[00:00:27] Kevin: I don't mind paying more for some of the vacations, if that money actually goes towards the debt and not towards hobbies or animals.

[00:00:35] Ramit: You're making tons of money, but you're paying minimums on debt. And more is going to towards pigeons than student loans.

[00:00:43] Samantha: When you phrase it like that--

[00:00:45] Kevin: I tend to be a very conflict-avoidant person. Anytime that it starts to be a conflict, I'm just like, "All right, I'm done with this."

[00:00:51] Samantha: At least seven times a week I'm like, "Are you mad at me?" And he is like, "No, I'm fine." Happy seems the same as angry. So that is a challenge.

[Narration]

[00:01:06] Ramit: Today I'm talking to Kevin and Samantha, a couple that's lived together for seven years. They earn a high income, and they have kept their finances entirely separate. Okay, sounds fine on paper, but underneath the numbers, there is a lot at play. Kevin owns their home. He has zero student loans, and hundreds of thousands of dollars invested.

[00:01:28] Samantha is carrying $78,000 of student loans. She has barely any savings, and almost no investments. When there's a major financial gap between partners, it can cause tension and shame, which is exactly what's happening here.

[00:01:44] Let's take a look at their numbers. I'm about to open up their conscious spending plan, which is the same tool I use with every couple to see how much they make, spend, save, and invest.

[00:01:53] Here's what I see. Assets, $652,000. Investments, 883,000. Savings, 23,000. And debt, 389,000. Their net worth is $1.17 million. Fixed costs, 43%. Investments, 12%. Savings, 1%. And guilt-free spending, 44%.

[00:02:20] All right. The spending looks fine on the surface, but again, when we go beneath the numbers, they are disconnected and resentful. Now we have a lot more to reveal. In this episode, you are going to see a lot that you do not expect. But first tell me in the comments, have you ever been in a relationship where one person had way more money than the other? How did you handle it? Did you separate your finances? Did you combine them? Did you set up rules? I want to hear your experience in the comments below.

[00:02:48] And now listen in as we meet Samantha and Kevin.

[Interview]

[00:02:53] Ramit: Samantha, I read your application, and something stood out to me right at the top. You said, "I feel I'll never be financially good enough for Kevin." What does good enough mean?

[00:03:05] Samantha: That financially he views me as a equal partner and as somebody he trusts to make money decisions and eventually combine finances one day.

[00:03:17] Ramit: And Kevin, would you agree with that characterization?

[00:03:22] Kevin: I don't know that I really knew that. She's never said that to me before.

[00:03:25] Ramit: Hold on. That was at the top of the application. Samantha, you never said that to Kevin before?

[00:03:30] Samantha: I guess not in those words. I once said, "I feel like even if I saved a million dollars, that wouldn't be good enough for you." And he was like, "Well, if it was a million dollars." Which was supposed to be funny, but to me, I'm like, "Oh, man, is that the line? A millions dollars?" I will never hit that.

[00:03:48] Ramit: Samantha, what happened next?

[00:03:50] Samantha: We just dropped it because it got me in a little bit of a mental doom spiral that I could be perfect fiscally, do all the right things from there on out, and I'm not going to catch up unless I win the lottery.

[00:04:05] Ramit: And what does that imply? If you have less money than Kevin, then?

[00:04:10] Samantha: Then I am not contributing equally to our partnership. He's carrying the burden.

[00:04:17] Ramit: Is that bad?

[00:04:19] Samantha: Yes. Well, I don't know. Another comment was made at one point that he didn't want to carry the burden of us fiscally in retirement. And I agree. But it also freaked me out because I won't have the same amount of money he will have, and so I can't tell if what he's looking for is a concerted effort or if he is looking for an actual fiscal dollar amount.

[00:04:42] Ramit: You ever talk about this?

[00:04:44] Samantha: Not really. Our money is mostly separate. A couple of occasions we tried, but I was extremely embarrassed about my situation, and I brushed it off.

[00:04:56] Ramit: Okay. Which of you is avoidant, by a show of hands? Both hands went up. Okay. That's pretty interesting. So you're both avoidant. You both know it. Do you both know that about each other?

[00:05:09] Samantha: I know that about him. I would say that this area is an area I am avoidant in, and I'm not avoidant in a lot of other areas.

[00:05:17] Ramit: Got it. And Kevin, are you avoidant in everything or just money?

[00:05:20] Kevin: Most things, I would say.

[00:05:22] Ramit: All right. How long have you two been together?

[00:05:24] Kevin: Seven years.

[00:05:25] Ramit: Is the ultimate goal to get married?

[00:05:27] Samantha: I would like to be married. It's not a deal breaker for me at this point, but I feel as though money is a huge obstacle for that. I feel like I have to clean up a lot before that's something he would consider. That's not something he'd said to me. That's just something I have said to myself.

[00:05:43] Ramit: Oh, okay. So Kevin, do you agree or disagree?

[00:05:46] Kevin: I think I would agree. I've been married before, and I am not super excited about getting married again. So I don't think it's like a, oh, if you get your money figured out, we're going to get married. It would put me in more of a place where I might want to.

[00:05:57] Ramit: All right. Okay, so you've been together seven years. You haven't talked about money that much. How often do you talk about money?

[00:06:06] Samantha: I would say we comment at money rather than conversate about money.

[00:06:12] Ramit: Is that like snipe?

[00:06:13] Samantha: It could be a snipe, or it could be just a genuine, "Wow, the groceries were expensive." And then the other person would say, "Yes."

[00:06:21] Ramit: What are some other comments that you say to each other about money?

[00:06:24] Kevin: If we're talking about going on a trip or something like that, I guess we don't really say, "Can you afford that?" But more of a like, "Oh, that's going to be kind of expensive." But then there's no discussion past that. It's more of just like a, "Yes, it is."

[00:06:37] Ramit: Okay. Samantha?

[00:06:39] Samantha: You spent too much money at the bird vet.

[00:06:42] Ramit: I like this type of conversation. I don't think I've really heard it that much. It's just like one sentence, end. It's like when I talk to young kids. They go, "Your shirt is weird." End of the story. No more comments at all. This is done. That's it. They said what they have to say. I respect that.

[00:07:00] Kevin: I think part of it is because our finances are very separate other than just like, we have a credit card that shared expenses are on, that it's just like, all right, you do you, kind of a thing.

[00:07:10] Ramit: Okay. Do you know about each other's financial situation?

[00:07:14] Samantha: Now we do. We knew I think a rough idea of what the other person made.

[00:07:20] Ramit: Rough, like how rough?

[00:07:22] Samantha: I knew how much he made when he started his job because he told me that he had to negotiate and then he would tell me that he got X percent raises. And so I could infer from that what he made.

[00:07:34] Ramit: What the hell's going on right now? You're living together. You're together for seven years. You're not even talking about how much each other makes. What's happening here?

[00:07:42] Kevin: I knew an estimate of how much Samantha made, but I would ask, and it was just like, "Oh, I don't know. It's hard to know because it's sales, and it could be different. "

[00:07:53] Ramit: Do you guys talk substantively about other things besides money?

[00:07:58] Samantha: Yes.

[00:07:59] Ramit: What would be an example?

[00:08:00] Samantha: Politics, family.

[00:08:04] Kevin: Animals.

[00:08:05] Samantha: Animals.

[00:08:05] Ramit: Okay. You really talk about them. You grapple. You know each other's views. You probe, that kind of thing.

[00:08:11] Samantha: Correct.

[00:08:12] Ramit: Okay. All right. Why not with money?

[00:08:15] Samantha: It's embarrassing for me, and I've never really had the skills to do it. I've never had the conversations in other relationships either.

[00:08:25] Ramit: When you think of money, what words come to mind for you?

[00:08:27] Samantha: Anxiety, but also potential.

[00:08:31] Ramit: You feel nervous right now?

[00:08:33] Samantha: Yes.

[00:08:34] Ramit: I can understand that. If you haven't been comfortable enough to even bring it up in your own long-term relationship, to be here talking about money with me, with us, with a camera, I can understand that. That can feel very overwhelming. So I appreciate it. We'll take our time in our conversation today. Kevin, you ever ask her about her anxiety around money?

[00:08:56] Kevin: Further back in our relationship, I tried to bring it up a little bit more. It just seemed like she wasn't interested in talking about it. I was just like, "All right. Well, she doesn't want to talk about it, so I'm not going to push it."

[00:09:08] Ramit: Hmm. All right. Can the two of you think of a time in the last three, six months, where you were not on the same page about money?

[00:09:16] Samantha: A week and a half ago we were on vacation, and we're in the hot tub, glass of wine, looking out at the ocean. It's very lovely. And he asked me if I wanted to go to this place called Leavenworth, where we have gone every year around Christmas for the past five years. And I expressed that I don't think it's a good idea for me. I want to save money for vacations moving forward. And I have not been doing that.

[00:09:45] Ramit: Okay. And Kevin, what did you say? Let's just role play it.

[00:09:48] Kevin: We've gone every year before, and it hasn't been a problem for us, for our money. So I don't see why we can't go. Not even acknowledging the need to save or that she's uncomfortable.

[00:10:02] Samantha: It was clear to me he was disappointed at this point, so I said, "We can take a look at it." Because I don't want my financial situation to put a damper on what he can do in his life.

[00:10:15] Ramit: And was that the end of it?

[00:10:16] Samantha: The end of it was, "We can look at it."

[00:10:19] Ramit: Have you?

[00:10:20] Samantha: We have not.

[00:10:21] Ramit: Let's just do it right now. I don't know the price, but I'll make it up. 400 bucks a night. You're going to go for four nights. That's 1,600. Plus taxes, plus blah, blah, blah, that's 2,200. Here it is. Here's the thing I found. I'm Kevin. Here you go, Samantha.

[00:10:35] Samantha: If the expectation is that we split it 50-50, I don't think that that will be happening for me this year.

[00:10:42] Ramit: Oh, but I just spent so much time looking at all these Airbnbs. We did it the year before. So what's the problem? We should be able to do it again.

[00:10:48] Samantha: The problem is that the trip is going to cost $2,200. If we could find a trip for 1,500, I might be able to save that much money by December.

[00:10:59] Ramit: Ah. Why don't you just tell him that, out of curiosity?

[00:11:03] Samantha: That's a great question. I need to look and see what is reasonably possible for me to save before December before I present that number to him.

[00:11:13] Ramit: Do you struggle to advocate for yourself?

[00:11:15] Samantha: In this area, yes. Because I don't want to say no. I don't want to turn down experiences that I know he wants to do because it would put a strain on me financially. It feels more important that we have the experience than I have the money-- as silly as that sounds.

[00:11:33] Ramit: Can you just say that again? I want you to hear yourself.

[00:11:36] Samantha: It's more important that we have the experience than I have the money.

[00:11:41] Ramit: How's that strike you when you hear it?

[00:11:43] Samantha: Self-defeating. It doesn't help me. It doesn't help us in the long run to say yes to everything.

[Narration]

[00:11:48] Ramit:  It's pretty rare to meet two avoiders. Their annual income is a combined $369,000, and that is what is basically covering up these dynamics. That high income allows them to maintain separate finances and avoid uncomfortable conversations, and really delay any true planning.

[00:12:10] Most couples could not operate like this without immediate consequences, especially if they were earning less than 100k combined. The pain of that avoidance would simply be way too big. But even with this really high income, that problem is coming to the surface. They're disconnected on their goals. They don't know each other's numbers, and they don't even really know what true financial partnership looks like. Remember, they've been together for seven years. What I learned next genuinely surprised me.

[00:12:40] Here's what Samantha said when I asked how they handled their biggest household expenses.

[Interview]

[00:12:46] Samantha: Kevin pays the mortgage, and we split the utilities, groceries, etc., 50-50.

[00:12:53] Ramit: Okay. How did you agree on that?

[00:12:55] Samantha: We didn't. At the time I moved in, I was unemployed. He did want me to pay him some rent at some point, and I did a couple of times. But I have not been. Sometimes the money just doesn't exist at the end of the month, but also, this is his house. If he sells it, it's all his money. I feel like he's not my landlord. He's my partner. And doesn't it make more sense for the money to be saved or invested. Long term that seems like a more advantageous step to take than just giving him x number of dollars cash to probably just save himself.

[00:13:36] Ramit: And did you discuss this with him?

[00:13:38] Samantha: I believe I have made a comment to that effect, but it was not a real discussion.

[00:13:43] Ramit: All right. But Samantha, how do you feel about not paying the mortgage but splitting the utilities, groceries, etc.? It sounds like you are comfortable with it, and it is how you would set things up if you had a magic wand.

[00:13:56] Samantha: Yes, I am comfortable with that arrangement.

[00:13:59] Ramit: Okay, cool. Kevin, what's your take?

[00:14:01] Kevin: I think I was a little frustrated with that conversation because before Samantha moved in, she had made a comment about, "Oh, if I were to move in, I could help you pay your mortgage." But then once she moved in, it was like, "No, because you're the one that's going to benefit from it. So I don't think I should have to pay." Which was a little frustrating to me.

[00:14:21] Ramit: What did you do when she said that?

[00:14:23] Kevin: I think I very lightly voiced that I was frustrated, but then just stopped talking about it because I am extremely conflict-avoidant and just didn't want to have the conversation.

[00:14:32] Ramit: I want to ask you the same question I asked Samantha. Do you struggle advocating for yourself?

[00:14:36] Kevin: Yes.

[00:14:37] Ramit: You said in your application that financial stress has caused frustration and stalemate. Can you give me an example of that?

[00:14:46] Samantha: I think the mortgage one is a great example of a stalemate. I don't think that that is something you ask a partner to do if they don't have an ownership stake in the house. And we have just done nothing about it.

[00:14:59] Ramit: Let's flip the roles for a second. Let's say that you owned a house and then he moved in with you. How would you structure it?

[00:15:06] Samantha: I think that a partner is different than a roommate, and I wouldn't expect a partner to pay me rent as long as they were paying their part of utilities and groceries.

[00:15:16] Ramit: Okay. And the argument that you made, which was like, since he owns it, he would accrue any equity-- I never hear renters make that argument to their landlord, like, I'm not going to pay you rent because you are the one who's accumulating equity. What do you think about that?

[00:15:32] Samantha: I'm not trying to build like a financial future with my landlord.

[00:15:36] Ramit: Are you trying to build a financial future with Kevin?

[00:15:39] Samantha: I am, and I feel as though the rent money would be better allocated in an investment or saving scenario given how far behind I am.

[00:15:51] Ramit: What if you weren't far behind? What if you had no debt?

[00:15:54] Samantha: That's a good question, Ramit. If I had no debt, I would probably have similar feelings, but also would probably pay it just because I know that it would make him happy.

[00:16:05] Ramit: It doesn't seem very convincing to me. I don't mind that the two of you would talk about this. I think that's really healthy. And candidly, I think that couples can come up with whatever solution as long as they both think it's fair. That even falls apart when you're like, "Ah, if I didn't have debt, I would probably pay it."

[00:16:22] Your debt is yours. I think if Kevin were in the same situation and the roles were reversed, I would be asking Kevin the same question. And I actually think that a lot of us would be like, "Kevin, are you a deadbeat?" And I don't think either of you're a deadbeat. I've seen your CSP. I want to talk about it. Both of you do very well. It's really impressive.

[00:16:40] But I'm just wondering how much of this is invisible expectations that has never really been talked about with each other. I'm wondering how much of this is because of the debt. How much of it is gender expectations? How much of this is just wrapped up in, unexamined assumptions about money?

[00:16:55] Samantha: I want to address the gender expectations first. I don't believe that he should be a provider. The money simply doesn't exist at the end of the month, and it doesn't feel like the best use of the money to pay him rent.

 [Narration]

[00:17:12] Ramit: I don't love what's happening right here. Like it or not, money and gender roles exist. On this show, we've discussed men who exhibit problematic money dynamics, like putting their wife on an allowance or calling her spending frivolous, but we have not talked about some of the other toxic money beliefs.

[00:17:31] There's a growing trend on TikTok where women proudly announced that their man pays for everything-- rent, bills, vacations, dates, 100%. There's even special phrases for this part of TikTok. I'm looking for a provider. I know my worth. I would never go 50-50. This is not something to be proud of.

[00:17:54] It's the equivalent of red pill Men who talk about being a high-value man and then demand a woman who solely cooks and cleans for them. Not only is demanding that a man pay for everything unfair.

[00:18:07] You're putting yourself at extreme risk. If you're putting yourself into a relationship where you only seek out someone who's paying for everything, that is a primary goal that you are looking for, then what happens when that person starts to control what you spend? What happens if you stop earning money? Where is your financial security coming from?

[00:18:26] Now, Samantha isn't saying that Kevin should pay for everything, but her logic that she shouldn't contribute to the mortgage because he's building equity, it's very close to the exact argument that shows up on these TikToks.

[00:18:40] There are actually plenty of other arrangements that could make perfect sense. She could pay market rate for an equivalent place that she could otherwise rent. She could build equity over time that vests once they get married, or are there any number of other options that would be fair to both of them?

[00:18:57] If your social media feed is full of dating advice that says men should pay for everything and they're providers, and you have to dress up for a date, therefore, he should pay for everything, you are in a toxic algorithm. Change it, and do it now.

[Interview]

[00:19:12] Ramit: All right. Samantha, you said in your application that you feel you have "No say, because Kevin owns the house." What do you mean by that?

[00:19:22] Samantha: I would love to live somewhere that is not the city we live in. And Kevin has also made similar comments, but what I have realized over the years is that they're more of like daydream fantasies than actual urges to move. And if I want to stay in a relationship with Kevin, which I do, I have to stay in this city, in this house.

[00:19:49] Ramit: And can you tell me what you mean by his comments are more daydreams?

[00:19:55] Samantha: We'll be in Seattle, for example, and he'll start looking at houses on Zillow. We'll get into details of what we're looking for, but make no plans, no timeline for that to happen. And initially, first couple of years of dating, when I would see him on Zillow looking at these places, which were also places I wanted to live, I would get excited and think like, oh, maybe this is really going to happen. But I think he just likes looking at houses on Zillow.

[00:20:24] Ramit: Kevin, agree, disagree?

[00:20:27] Kevin: I do like looking at houses. But also, any place we moved would be a substantial increase in mortgage, and we couldn't afford that because I just assume most of that would be on me. Financially, it just doesn't make sense.

[00:20:42] Ramit: What percentage of your relationship around money do both of you think is based on assumptions rather than clear communication?

[00:20:52] Kevin: A lot of assumptions.

[00:20:53] Samantha: Like 80%. I have started, in the last couple of the months, try to be more straightforward telling him what I'm doing, because honestly, I want him to be proud of me and see that I'm moving in the right direction.

[00:21:08] Ramit: Do either of you have visibility into the other's savings or investments?

[00:21:13] Samantha: We do not.

[00:21:14] Ramit: Okay. Out of curiosity, if you were not living together, what would you be doing for housing?

[00:21:20] Samantha: I would be traveling a whole lot less, and I would have a whole lot less pets, and I would not be going out to eat. My life would look a lot different.

[00:21:31] Ramit: So what I'm hearing is Kevin's lifestyle has pulled you up to a level that is unsustainable for you if you were solo. Is that correct?

[00:21:40] Samantha: Yes, I would have to make a lot of changes.

[00:21:43] Ramit: Got it. Okay. Kevin, you want to comment at all?

[00:21:47] Kevin: No, I think that makes sense. I suppose I didn't really think about the trips as pulling her up into a spending area that she's not necessarily comfortable with. And I think I should think about more. I think part of my like frustration was that I was like, "Okay, I'm going to pay the mortgage. That's fine, if that'll help her pay off some loans," or that sort of thing.

[00:22:05] But then that didn't really happen, which was a little bit frustrating for me. Because I'm like, "All right. Well, if I pay the whole thing--" I would've been paying it anyways even if she wasn't living here.

[00:22:13] So it's not like a net negative to me. But if you are not having to pay for housing, then that should mean that you can pay off your student loans and that sort of thing, or it should be much easier to do that. And since that hasn't really happened, that has been a little bit of a frustration for me.

[00:22:29] Ramit: Okay. That's fair. Do you ever bring it up?

[00:22:31] Kevin: No.

[00:22:32] Ramit: Okay. All right. How do you both feel about money in your relationship?

[00:22:37] Kevin: I can't think of any other word other than really avoidant.

[00:22:40] Ramit: Samantha?

[00:22:41] Samantha: I know. As bad as I have made it all sound, I feel optimistic because something in me has changed, and I feel like I've gotten more open in just the past couple of months. And I feel like I've got myself on the right track. But I would like the money part of our relationship to be more cohesive and less isolated

[00:23:05] Ramit: Great. I love that vision. Kevin, let me put this up on screen. This is the wheel of emotion. Might help you access some of the feelings. I myself have used this. I learned this in therapy.

[00:23:15] Kevin: Oh, man. There are a lot of emotions, aren't there?

[00:23:18] Ramit: That's what every man who looks at this graphic says. He's like, "What? There's more emotions than anger?"

[00:23:24] Kevin: I do feel mostly enthusiastic or optimistic, I would say, most of the time. But there is definitely some exasperation.

[00:23:34] Ramit: I will tell you; my facial reaction betrayed me. I was surprised when you said enthusiastic, because I haven't heard you be enthusiastic about money once.

[00:23:40] Samantha: This is his enthusiasm.

[00:23:42] Kevin: Yeah, yeah.

[00:23:43] Ramit: Okay. So your countenance is just more generally relaxed?

[00:23:48] Kevin: Yeah.

[00:23:49] Ramit: Okay. Is that hard to read, Samantha?

[00:23:52] Samantha: Absolutely. At least seven times a week, I'm like, "Are you mad at me?" And he is like, "No, I'm fine." Happy, seems the same as angry, as all of the above. So that is a challenge.

[00:24:05] Ramit: In a dream world where you could wave a magic wand, what would your relationship with money look like?

[00:24:11] Samantha: Magic wand, my student loan debt and my car debt absolutely gone. And we are able to discuss money openly and have communal goals with our money. And really discuss how we want to use money as a tool for X, Y, and Z. I want to be able to plan the year out with, what we're going to do with our money.

[00:24:34] Ramit: Okay. And what about the house?

[00:24:36] Samantha: Well, we wouldn't live in this house, magic wand.

[00:24:39] Ramit: You'd live somewhere else?

[00:24:40] Samantha: Yes. And I would have an ownership stake in it and I would be making payments toward it.

[00:24:46] Ramit: Okay, cool. Kevin, back to you.

[00:24:48] Kevin: That all sounds great. I think that to end being on a path to early retirement is--

[00:24:54] Ramit: How early?

[00:24:55] Kevin: As soon as possible, but 50.

[00:24:58] Ramit: 50. And you are? 41.

[00:25:00] Kevin: Yeah.

[00:25:01] Ramit: Okay. Any surprises in what you both heard?

[00:25:04] Samantha: We've talked about how he wants to retire early and how I probably will not be able to, and that is okay with me. I enjoy what I do, and I am perfectly happy with him going on retired excursions and joining him when I can. Because the math is not math-ing for me to retire at 50.

[00:25:25] Ramit: In the magic wand answer from both of you, I did not hear that you would like to be married.

[00:25:30] Samantha: That's not as important to me as having a more teamwork view of our entire life.

[00:25:38] Ramit: Okay. Any hesitations? Anybody? Kevin?

[00:25:41] Kevin: No. I know owning a house together is complex, if you're not married, but--

[00:25:45] Ramit: Yeah. It can be done. We can talk about it. All right. Let's look at the CSP. Kevin, why don't you read off the word in bold and then the number in full next to it for this entire box, please?

[00:25:57] Kevin: Assets, 652,500. Investments, 883,300. Savings 23,300. Debt, 389,000. For total net worth of 1,170,100.

[00:26:15] Ramit: Okay. And just to clarify, how much is your debt, Samantha?

[00:26:19] Samantha: So my student loan debt is a little bit under 78,000, and I owe approximately 30,000 on my car.

[00:26:26] Ramit: Okay. What's the rest of it? The house?

[00:26:30] Kevin: Yeah.

[00:26:31] Ramit: All right. And then Samantha, can you read off the combined gross monthly income number, please?

[00:26:38] Samantha: $30,803.

[00:26:41] Ramit: You make $369,000 a year. Did you know that?

[00:26:44] Samantha: No. And when we were looking at that, it blew our mind both a good and a bad way.

[00:26:51] Ramit: Good, meaning we make a ton of money. Bad, meaning, where's it all going? What do we have to show for it?

[00:26:57] Samantha: Yes. It sounds like a lot, but it doesn't feel like a lot.

[00:27:01] Ramit: $369,000 does not feel like a lot of money.

[00:27:06] Samantha: Not when you're living it.

[00:27:09] Ramit: Okay. Let's continue. Your fixed costs combined are 43%, which is very low. Now, I would expect them to be low, because you make a high salary. But what is interesting to me is that your fixed costs are quite similar. Kevin is the one making 18,000 a month gross, and then we have Samantha making 12,000 gross.

[00:27:34] What's interesting is, look at those fixed costs, 46 and 39%. So they're similar. However, Kevin is paying the mortgage. Samantha is not. So we have 3,100 going towards the mortgage. Samantha is paying zero. But let's continue looking down here. So we have equal on utilities.

[00:27:51] Samantha's paying a little bit more on insurance. Samantha is paying quite a bit more on car payment. Debt payments at $180 a month. It's interesting to see that the way that the two of you talk about money is so different, but these numbers themselves are similar. Now, I understand that there's one major difference here, which is the mortgage. What do you all make of that?

[00:28:15] Samantha: I am surprised we spend a similar amount. I am surprised the percentages are low. They don't feel low.

[00:28:22] Ramit: I want to read off this pet category because it's unusual. We have Kevin paying $448 a month, and we have Samantha paying $588 a month, for a total of $1,036 per month. How many pets are we talking about?

[00:28:39] Samantha: We have three dogs, two cats, five chickens, and  eight pigeons.

[00:28:45] Ramit: You got eight pigeons?

[00:28:47] Samantha: Yes, pigeons.

[00:28:48] Ramit: Did you grow up in a rural area with a lot of animals?

[00:28:51] Samantha: I grew up in a small town. We still lived in a subdivision, but I have always been an animal lover, so always had a lot of pets growing up.

[00:29:01] Ramit: Let's continue down. Investments. So you both do 401(k) pre-tax. We have 1,900 bucks for Kevin, 1,200 bucks for Samantha. On top of that, we have some investments. Kevin is investing aggressively. An extra 1,400 post tax. Samantha's doing 584. That's probably what, Roth IRA?

[00:29:24] Samantha: Yes.

[00:29:25] Ramit: All right. And then another 108 bucks for something else. What is that?

[00:29:29] Samantha: An employee stock purchase.

[00:29:31] Ramit: Cool. Great. All right. So that's a total of 12%. Again, quite similar, 14 and 10%, just off of different incomes. But okay. Savings are at 1%. That's just 100 bucks a month. And then finally, these numbers I found remarkable. Guilt-free spending for Kevin is at 40% or $4,000 per month. And for Samantha at 51%, or $3,672. What do y'all make of those numbers?

[00:30:00] Samantha: It doesn't align with reality. I know I do not have $3,600 left over. I did look at our dining out bill, and it averages about $950 a month eating out. I'm not totally sure where the rest of it is going.

[00:30:18] Ramit: Really? Kevin, what do you think? He looks completely mystified.

[00:30:22] Kevin: I don't know. I really don't know. I knew we spent like a decent amount on going out and things like that, but $8,000?

[00:30:31] Ramit: Yeah, $7,756 a month. You're telling me, we doesn't feel like that. That's crazy. But it's not really crazy if you add things up correctly. That is why the CSP is structured the way it is. So let's talk about it. Samantha, you said something very interesting. You said there's no way we have that amount of money over leftover.

[00:30:52] Maybe. Maybe the math is wrong. Or maybe when you took that vacation and when you eat out for dinner and all that stuff, maybe that's not properly tracked here on a monthly basis. How much do you spend on vacations per year ballpark?

[00:31:06] Samantha: Like the most recent one, the hotel alone was about $2,500. I would guess we spent another $1,000 eating out.

[00:31:13] Ramit: Round up to 4,000. It's probably more 5,000 when you count everything. And how many vacations do you take per year ballpark?

[00:31:19] Samantha: Two to three.

[00:31:21] Kevin: Two to three. yeah.

[00:31:21] Ramit: Let's say three. I always round up. That's 15,000 minimum, which is 1,200 bucks a month. You're starting to see how the numbers add up?

[00:31:28] Samantha: Yeah.

[00:31:29] Ramit: This is why you feel like, oh my God, this is so crazy. Where's all the money? But actually, it's just not properly being counted, and you're actually not getting the psychic benefit that you could. If you were, instead, to say, "We're going to take three vacations a year. We're going to put the money aside ahead of time. We're going to appreciate that we can go to this fancy dinner place that we both love." It's going to be awesome.

[00:31:55] And then when you look at your CSP, it looks like a video game where you're winning. Right now, this video game sucks. We have all these points at the top, but where's all the money? Well, the money happened seven months ago, and you just didn't track it, and now your mind does not know how to amortize it correctly. That's human nature. How do y'all feel about that?

[00:32:13] Samantha: I feel very much validated in my desire to save towards the vacations and talk about them at the beginning of the year and plan for them. Taking vacations on a whim, it's fun and lovely, but it's not putting me in the best position fiscally.

[Narration]

[00:32:32] Ramit: Samantha says things like, "I feel like I'll never be financially good enough for Kevin. I don't think I'll ever catch up unless I win the lottery. It's more important that we have the experience than I have the money." All of this, while earning $144,000 a year, which is a very good salary.

[00:32:51] This is exactly why I say how we feel about money is highly uncorrelated to what we have in the bank. Once someone feels behind, they often start to behave in destructive ways. They feel guilty when they are doing well by active measure. It's like if your partner speaks a second language to their family, and every time you hear them speaking to them, you feel bad because you don't speak the language. Nobody expects you to speak that language.

[00:33:15] You created that standard in your head, and now you feel bad because you're not living up to a standard that you yourself made up. We do the same thing with money. We create an arbitrary standard, and then we feel bad about it.

[00:33:27] The truth is a lot of people actually like feeling guilty about money. It gives them purpose. It reminds a lot of people how they were raised, and that feels comfortable. After all, if you're not feeling guilty, who are you really?

[00:33:41] If you're listening to this and you realize you and your partner avoid these same kind of conversations, you don't need to wait years to fix it. Inside my money coaching program, you can learn how to talk about money clearly. You can connect over money, and you can build a system that works for both of you. You can join at iwt.com/moneycoaching.

[Interview]

[00:34:04] Ramit: Have you all ever considered how much each of you proportionally makes? I would guess not, because I don't really think you knew each other's income.

[00:34:12] Kevin: No, not actually.

[00:34:14] Ramit: So Kevin, you make 221 per year, and Samantha, you make 148 per year. It's like 60-40 basically. How does that strike you?

[00:34:24] Samantha: I'm not surprised he makes more.

[00:34:26] Ramit: Are you surprised that it's 60-40 and not 80-20?

[00:34:29] Samantha: Yes, yes. I'm surprised that it is 60-40.

[00:34:32] Ramit: The way you talk about it, it sounds like he makes 80% of the household income.

[00:34:36] Samantha: Yeah.

[00:34:37] Ramit: You make a lot of money, Samantha. You make $148,356. That's a lot of money. Have you internalized that?

[00:34:46] Samantha: No. I still feel like how I felt when I was making 50,000.

[00:34:54] Ramit: Wow. Do you think you'll ever feel good about how much you make?

[00:34:57] Samantha: I do. I think that if I continue behaving like a person who makes almost $150,000 and has those habits as opposed to the things I was doing when I was making $50,000, then I can internalize that.

[00:35:14] Ramit: I want to talk about your savings. How come only one person is saving and it's only a $100 a month?

[00:35:20] Samantha: I save basically what I can at the end of the month.

[00:35:25] Ramit: Huh? I don't understand that. What does that mean? That's like a little Indian kid saying, "I only study when I feel like it." It's like, what the [Bleep]? I literally do not understand the words you were saying right now. What does that mean?

[00:35:38] Samantha: After the bills are paid, after my exorbitant pet food and vet bills costs, I save and invest the remainder.

[00:35:48] Ramit: As a non-pet owner, I have a difficult question to ask you. Who's more important? You or your pets?

[00:35:54] Samantha: I guess me. It's me.

[00:35:57] Ramit: You pay close to 1,000 bucks a month on your pets.

[00:36:00] Samantha: That is correct.

[00:36:02] Ramit: And you only save $100 a month for yourself.

[00:36:05] Samantha: That is also correct.

[00:36:06] Ramit: If you want to spend that much on your pets, okay. We can make it work, honestly. It's very doable. But it is striking that you only save $100 a month, and your answer was, I do whatever's left.

[00:36:17] Samantha: Yes.

[00:36:18] Ramit: How much do you have in savings?

[00:36:20] Samantha: I have 4,400. I checked it this morning.

[00:36:24] Ramit: Okay, so let me ask a worst-case question. I don't expect this is going to happen, but I just want to ask just to make the point for you. Let's say that the two of you decide to separate, and Samantha and Kevin, you both go on your merry ways. Samantha, how long could you last with your existing savings?

[00:36:42] Samantha: Oh, a month maybe.

[00:36:44] Ramit: Yeah. And this is somebody making $150,000. Do you think that that is normal.

[00:36:48] Samantha: I do not.

[00:36:49] Ramit: Okay. What is stopping you from changing the situation that you are in?

[00:36:54] Samantha: I don't really want to stop going on vacations, and I--

[00:36:58] Ramit: That's an honest answer.

[00:37:00] Samantha: --don't want to stop buying a book that I want, or I don't want to have to make a hard decision about one of my pets.

[00:37:07] Ramit: Kevin, similarly, you have probably 20k in savings. So same question. If you were to separate, how long do you think it could last?

[00:37:18] Kevin: Almost six months.

[00:37:19] Ramit: Okay. How do you feel about that?

[00:37:21] Kevin: I feel okay about that. I feel like with the current situation in our country, I should probably have a little more saved, but I felt pretty good about having six months until recently.

[00:37:30] Ramit: What do you think about your numbers compared to my recommendations for the conscious spending plan? For example, in fixed costs, I typically recommend 50 to 60%. Your numbers are 46 and 39%. Investments, I typically recommend 5 to 10. Your numbers are 14 and 10%, and you are putting away pre-tax money as well, so it's even higher than that. What do you think of that?

[00:37:56] Samantha: I would like to increase mine.

[00:37:59] Ramit: Okay. Kevin?

[00:38:00] Kevin: I feel good about those numbers.

[00:38:02] Ramit: Cool. Savings, I typically recommend 5 to 10%. You're at zero and 1%.

[00:38:08] Samantha: Not good. I would like to increase that as well.

[00:38:11] Kevin: I am neutral on it because we should start spending or saving for vacations, gifts, and that sort of thing. But as far as emergency funds and other savings, pretty much have what I want in savings.

[00:38:22] Ramit: Okay. Guilt-free spending, I typically recommend 20 to 35%. You're at 40 and 51%.

[00:38:28] Kevin: It's a bit high. It's clearly not guilt-free spending because we're feeling guilty about it. And you look at that number and you're like, "Oh man, you guys must be doing a whole bunch of stuff." And it doesn't seem like we are.

[00:38:38] Ramit: Samantha, what do you think about the numbers?

[00:38:40] Samantha: I do think we probably spend that much, but I think it is, as you mentioned, amortized out over the course of the year. So on a monthly basis, it's certainly doesn't feel like, $3,600.

[00:38:51] Ramit: Notably, nobody said they want to bring that number down. Whereas all the other ones, you're like, "Yeah, I want to bring it up." Why is that?

[00:38:57] Samantha: I don't really want to do less in my life, but I know that's what I have to do if I want to be on track to retire at any point in my life.

[00:39:07] Ramit: One of the surprising things that I find when I help people with money is when they actually come up with a super clear Rich Life vision, and then they have a system that funnels money to the right things. They're actually very surprised that they can often spend more on things they want because they've cut out all this random [Bleep] that so many people buy.

[00:39:26] They also can appreciate the things they do more. Especially the bigger they are. It's a human desire. We don't want to do less of the cool things we love. I get that. But I think there's probably larger goals here to discuss, like, what is our Rich Life together, and how do we create a vision together? And that can often be more important than, I don't want to give up spending on the things I've been spending on. Okay.

[Narration]

[00:39:51] Ramit: You know what's wild? People say they hate uncertainty, but when it comes to their own finances, they are totally okay with it. They don't know how much they spend. They don't even know how much they make. They don't know what their mortgage is. They have no idea if they'll be okay for retirement.

[00:40:07] It's one of the strangest things about human behavior, and I see it all the time. To understand where that comes from, we've got to go back. Let's take a look at their childhood to see what patterns they experienced that might be shaping their relationship with money today.

[Interview]

[00:40:22] Ramit: What did your family say about money when you were a kid?

[00:40:25] Samantha: It wasn't discussed with the children directly except to say like, "We can't afford that." Or, "If you want that, you're going to have to buy it with your own money." But there wasn't any discussion on savings. And I still think my parents have a fairly unsophisticated idea of investments.

[00:40:45] Ramit: What general area of the country did you grow up in?

[00:40:47] Samantha: Pacific Northwest.

[00:40:49] Ramit: Both parents, were they together?

[00:40:51] Samantha: They were together then. They are not together now.

[00:40:54] Ramit: Got it. When did they separate?

[00:40:56] Samantha: When I was 16.

[00:40:57] Ramit: Ah. And how did that affect you, financially speaking?

[00:41:01] Samantha: Yeah, that was rough. Me and my dad lived in this woman's basement. That was quite a change going from our like brand new subdivision house to a lady's basement.

[00:41:12] Ramit: What did you feel when that happened?

[00:41:13] Samantha: I was embarrassed. I didn't want my friends to come over. My dad also had to get rid of his car, and he got this 30-year-old Toyota Camry, and I would make him drop me off blocks from school.

[00:41:28] Ramit: What did he say about, for example, having to get this old car?

[00:41:34] Samantha: He didn't really say a whole lot. He had purchased a brand new car without discussing it with my mother. And when they divorced, he could no longer make the payments on it, so he just had to get any car he could afford to buy. A year later maybe, he somehow found the funds to go buy another new-ish car.

[00:41:52] Ramit: What do you make of that?

[00:41:54] Samantha: Neither of my parents are, I hate to say good with money. They're just out there spending on what they want to spend it on. The mentality, like, I worked for this, so I should get to buy what I want. And that, unfortunately I have realized, is similar to what I am doing.

[00:42:11] Ramit: Really?

[00:42:12] Samantha: Yes.

[00:42:13] Ramit: How so?

[00:42:14] Samantha: I'm making this money. I should be able to go to Italy for three weeks. If I see it, I like it. I want it. I bought it. That was my ethos for a very, very long time. And it is something I still struggle with, but I think I've improved a lot in the past few years.

[00:42:33] Ramit: Since when?

[00:42:33] Samantha: I realized that one day I want to retire, and I'm definitely not on the path to do that.

[00:42:37] Ramit: How are your parents doing now financially?

[00:42:40] Samantha: My mom's going to work until the day she dies. My dad unfortunately is now on wife number three and has lost half of his retirement with each divorce. So he's about five years away from retirement, and he recently told me he only has 300-something thousand dollars. And I was like, "Oh, that's really not what I want for myself."

[00:43:02] Ramit: Mm-hmm.

[00:43:02] Samantha: At 62.

[00:43:04] Ramit: When you heard that, did it cause any change in your own financial behavior specifically?

[00:43:11] Samantha: Yeah. I opened that Roth IRA immediately.

[00:43:14] Ramit: Really?

[00:43:15] Samantha: Yeah.

[00:43:16] Ramit: When you think back to your family and how you were brought up around money, what messages do you think that you learned and absorbed that you are bringing into this relationship?

[00:43:27] Samantha: What comes to mind is, you can't take it with you when you die. And not a great deal of thought before purchasing something. If you like it and you have the money in your bank account, just get it. It used to feel like, to me, that money was literally burning a hole in my pocket.

[00:43:45] And if I got to the end of the month and I had 100 bucks left, I would just say, "Oh, that's not enough to save or invest, so you might as well just buy something." That is not a feeling that I have anymore, but it is a feeling that I had for a very long time and is reflected in how little is in my retirement account.

[00:44:04] Ramit: Okay. All right. Kevin, what about you? What do you remember your family saying about money when you were young?

[00:44:09] Kevin: They talked about it quite a bit, actually. They owned a business, and so I would sometimes go sit in the office while my mom was doing the accounting for the business. So we talked about money quite a bit.

[00:44:21] Ramit: Did they teach you about investing when you were growing up?

[00:44:23] Kevin: A little bit. I actually had a class in high school that talked about investing. So I learned a bit there. And my dad would talk about the things he was investing in. Usually it would be investing in mutual funds and that sort of thing.

[00:44:36] Ramit: And Kevin, do you have siblings?

[00:44:39] Kevin: Yeah. One brother, two sisters.

[00:44:41] Ramit: Does your brother also not have access to his feelings?

[00:44:45] Kevin: Yeah, I would say.

[00:44:46] Ramit: Samantha, what was that laugh?

[00:44:48] Samantha: Oh, just knowing his brother, that's absolutely the truth. He covers all of his feelings up with jokes.

[00:44:55] Ramit: And this lack of affect, Kevin, would you agree with that way that I'm describing it? Like it's hard to read?

[00:45:01] Kevin: Yes. Yeah.

[00:45:03] Ramit: I'm asking because Samantha made a remark that like, sometimes she's very confused. Are you mad at me? Are you not? That lack of affect-- you ever see those videos where the mom did this science experiment? She put her baby down, and then instead of being like, I love you, I love you, she just stared at the baby. And then the baby tries to get attention and you go, "Ah, ooh."

[00:45:23] And then the baby gets increasingly frustrated and cries because it's very disturbing to babies to not see somebody react. Well, I wonder how much of that plays out when you're talking to somebody and you just have no idea. And this is not just somebody. It's your live-in intimate partner. That could be a little confusing. What do you make of it, Kevin?

[00:45:47] Kevin: That is definitely an issue that I could get better with. I've just always like, I don't know, just be the one that doesn't make waves. I don't get too up, too down.

[00:45:57] Ramit: Where did you grow up?

[00:45:58] Kevin: Also the Pacific Northwest. Smallish town.

[00:46:02] Ramit: And this has been a thing for a long time, like for your whole life you not make waves, not too high, not too low, that kind of thing?

[00:46:07] Kevin: Yeah.

[00:46:08] Ramit: You like it?

[00:46:09] Kevin: It's fine. There it is. There's the whole description of me right there. It's fine.

[00:46:18] Ramit: I connect with what you're saying because Indian men are not taught about our feelings when we grow up. That's why I had that wheel of emotions handy, because I freaking use it. And you'll even see a lot of different cultures, like they never smile in photos. That's not just a thing. There's something much deeper and cultural to it.

[00:46:40] And now that I've spent the last freaking 20 years trying to get more in touch, and I'm still just a beginner, what I think is most relevant is how a partner can react to that. And I think that's what I'm trying to unearth here with Samantha's reaction to what you describe as not too high, not too low.

[00:46:59] If you were genuinely frustrated that Samantha is not paying the mortgage or contributing some amount and you're just like, "All right. I guess that's fine." But it actually [Bleep] pisses you off every single month, then I bet you Samantha would sure like to know about that.

[00:47:15] Samantha: I agree. It is hard even when I ask, are you mad at me? And he says, no. I don't always believe that. So to have some clarification on what his true feelings are either direction would be nice.

[00:47:29] Ramit: Can I give us all an opportunity to talk about our fears with money? I'll give you an example from my own life. If somebody told me that I would not be able to stay at the type of hotels that I love, I would actually be really bummed. Samantha, you have a similar fear, if you could not do something with money, it would really bum you out?

[00:47:49] Samantha: If I could not take an international trip every year, that would really bum me out.

[00:47:56] Ramit: Cool. Kevin?

[00:47:57] Kevin: Yeah, I would say international trip or going to a nice restaurant a couple of times a year.

[00:48:02] Ramit: Great. Samantha, what is your fear of money that you have not said to Kevin, but you want to?

[00:48:08] Samantha: I fear that the standard I will be able to maintain in retirement will not live up to your expectations, and that will cause the relationship to end.

[00:48:22] Kevin: I don't want you to feel that way. And I'm sorry if that's what my attitude has made you think. I think with us working together, I think we can have a retirement that is great for both of us. So I'm not worried about not living up to those expectations or whatever expectation that is.

[00:48:42] Ramit: Okay. Let's pause right there. Let's zoom up. All of us floating above what just happened, we're looking down at the two of you. Describe the dynamics, Samantha, of what just happened in that conversation.

[00:48:52] Samantha: I expressed my fear, and Kevin apologized. And then he said it was not an issue, essentially.

[00:49:04] Ramit: Cool. How did you feel?

[00:49:06] Samantha: It was nice to hear, but doesn't really reflect previous conversations or previous comments that have been made nor does it align with the reality of one person retiring early.

[00:49:19] Ramit: Okay. Kevin, what was your analysis as you float above the two of you?

[00:49:24] Kevin: I think Samantha expressed a very legitimate fear, and I tried to just say everything's going to be all right.

[00:49:33] Ramit: Yeah. Why did you do that?

[00:49:35] Kevin: My set point is just avoiding a uncomfortable conversation or something of that nature.

[00:49:43] Ramit: So she brings up a legitimate concern, but it feels hard. It feels uncomfortable. If it was a door, we've just opened up this heavy metal door and behind it is just so much jumble of stuff that we're going to have to work on for years. So your natural reaction was?

[00:50:01] Kevin: Avoid.

[00:50:02] Ramit: Yeah. Close the door. It's actually going to be fine.

[00:50:05] Kevin: Yeah.

[00:50:05] Ramit: Close the door. There's nothing in there. It's good. It's good. Is it? Is it actually going to be fine?

[00:50:11] Kevin: On the path we've been on, not necessarily.

[00:50:14] Ramit: How about the path you send me in your CSP? Tell me how it's going to be fine.

[00:50:19] Kevin: I think getting rid of some of that or a lot of that debt, and continuing what she started to do in saving for retirement.

[00:50:28] Ramit: Will it be enough?

[00:50:29] Kevin: The amount that's going in there now, it seems like it's-- I guess I just don't know.

[00:50:34] Ramit: Okay, that's an honest answer. I actually think would actually be really comforting to hear.Can I give you a different example of what you might have said?

[00:50:43] Kevin: Yes, please.

[00:50:43] Ramit: All right. You might say, "Gosh, I really appreciate you being open enough to share that with me. And I know that money has not been an easy thing for us to talk about and especially for you to bring up, so I know it takes a lot of courage to bring that up. And I think what you're bringing up is legit.

[00:51:04] "I don't know the answer to it, but if you're open to it, I would love to try to work with you and try to see if there's a way for us to both feel really good about where we are today and where our retirement's going to be down the road." Samantha, how would that make you feel if you had heard something like that?

[00:51:20] Samantha: It would make me feel a lot more heard, and I love the idea of we don't necessarily have all of the answers, but we're going to work together to put a plan together.

[00:51:31] Ramit: Cool. And Kevin, what do you notice about the mock response that I gave?

[00:51:36] Kevin: You're not trying to fix everything in the moment.

[00:51:39] Ramit: Men love to fix [Bleep], even when they suck at it. Just stop. We don't actually have to fix it.

[00:51:46] Kevin: Yeah.

[00:51:47] Ramit: But what else?

[00:51:48] Kevin: It was a lot more of like how we're going to work on it together. Not saying like, it's going to be fine, but we're like, "We're going to work on it together."

[00:51:55] Ramit: I want her to be part of the team. And the thing is, Kevin, some of the stuff I said was just directly from you. You said, "That's a legitimate concern." So I said that to her because you feel it, but you're just not saying it. And so she's not feeling heard. And I also heard you say, "I don't know."

[00:52:10] Neither of you are a bad person if you don't know something. That's fine. There's a lot of stuff we all don't know. But just to say it and be like, "I don't know, but if you're open to it, I'd love to be able to figure it out with you." That's a team.

[00:52:20] Samantha: Yeah.

[00:52:21] Ramit: That's what we can do with money. All right. Out of curiosity, have either of you been to therapy?

[00:52:27] Samantha: Yeah, we did go together for a long while, but it dropped off earlier this year when my work travel schedule got very hectic.

[00:52:36] Ramit: Okay. Would you be open to going again?

[00:52:38] Samantha: Mm-hmm. Absolutely.

[00:52:39] Ramit: Awesome. Okay, cool. Great. This is a great topic to discuss with the help of a therapist who can work with you long term. That's awesome. Okay. I'm excited. I'm liking what I'm hearing so far. Kevin, what about your fears with money?

[00:52:53] Kevin: My big fear with money is that it will run out. My dad was married before he married my mom, and he lost basically everything in his divorce. And as Samantha mentioned, her dad has been married, and has lost a ton of money in each of his divorces. There's definitely a fear there of-- and I know you can do prenups and all that, but you can lose a lot. And so I guess fear of loss.

[00:53:17] Ramit: Samantha, how do you respond to that?

[00:53:19] Samantha: I have absolutely no problems with a prenup. But I also am not 100% attached to being married. I understand where his feelings come from, but I don't agree that they align with reality.

[00:53:35] Ramit: Wait. Can I do a mock response here as well? I like what you said, Samantha. I might reorder three of the things and then the fourth one I'm just going to take out back and never mention again. That last thing, we didn't need to go there. Let me share another way of responding that I think would be perhaps similarly connected. Because Kevin is making a legitimate point.

[00:53:56] There's a lot of history as to why you feel the way you do, Kevin. So I might say something like, Kevin, "That really means a lot to me that you brought it up. I know that money is hard for both of us to talk about, and I know, especially for you, you've mentioned you're avoidant before. So just to bring that up, it takes a lot.

[00:54:11] "And I also hear what you're saying about both of our family histories. We don't have great role models for how money has been handled in relationships. You're afraid of that, and I'm afraid too. If we get married, I'm certainly open to a prenup. I will be more than happy to discuss.

[00:54:33] "But more importantly is that we find a way to be able to come together on money and talk about it regularly and find something that is fair for both of us. Would you be open to that?" Kevin, if Samantha had said that, how would you have felt?

[00:54:48] Kevin: That response makes me feel more comfortable having that sort of a conversation because conflict is like, I just shut down. So when it's more of a response of like taking what I said and acknowledging and taking that fear into account, makes me feel heard and that I can bring those things up.

[00:55:08] Ramit: Amazing The funniest thing is that most of us deep down just want to be heard. You see these like really angry comments online. It's somebody sitting alone who wants to be heard. You hear your partner bringing up something maybe one of the comments, one he's brought up, like, "Ooh, that dinner was really expensive."

[00:55:24] They're not just bringing it up because they may not even realize why they're bringing it up, but they deep down want to be heard. And there's this famous phrase, when your partner says something in a whisper, treat it like it's a scream. And so when your partner is saying one of these things, you really listen. Listen. What are they really saying there?

[00:55:44] And if you're not sure, you ask them. "Hey, is there something there? If you're nervous about money, I would love to talk about it. We can always talk about it." Just like that, leaving that door open. Samantha, what did you notice about my response to Kevin?

[00:55:56] Samantha: A lot more empathetic than mine, and repeating back shows that you're listening.

[00:56:04] Ramit: Which part did I drop?

[00:56:05] Samantha: That it doesn't align with reality.

[00:56:08] Ramit: It's totally cool to disagree. You don't have to agree on everything. But there's also a time and a place for it. When someone is expressing their fears, we don't need to verbally eviscerate them. Truthfully, it's very hard to open up to each other and to really connect emotionally about money. So if one of you even makes the tiniest step forward, what I would really encourage you is for the other to create a very welcoming space.

[Narration]

[00:56:33] Ramit: I'm noticing a pattern with Samantha and Kevin. Have you picked up on it? They're not direct communicators. In fact, they avoid hard conversations altogether. They don't ask direct questions, and when they do share something deeper or vulnerable, it often gets brushed aside with a vague, "It's fine." Ignorant reassurance.

[00:56:54] They are ignorant of the actual facts, but they reassure each other. This is really just another avoidance tactic. But just now they made a big step forward. In that dynamic, Samantha named a real fear. And with some gentle coaching, Kevin didn't change the subject. He stayed in the conversation, which I found awesome. It's a small move, but very impressive.

[00:57:19] And I will point out, another way that they avoid being direct is something that I noticed from Samantha. When she feels uncomfortable, she turns it into a joke. A little self-deprecating comment to soften the moment. How many people here do this when you text people? You write something, maybe some honest feedback, and then you write LOL at the end.

[00:57:41] It's a verbal crutch that many of us lean on. But if we want to build the skill of being direct, we have to confront it. We have to change it. It's okay to be direct. You can be respectful and polite and direct. That's one of the skills that I want you to learn from this podcast.

[00:58:01] Now remember, people don't change overnight, but the small steps that I'm seeing here are actually big moves forward. So let's keep the momentum going. I want to look at the numbers to see how these patterns show up with their finances.

[Interview]

[00:58:14] Ramit: Samantha, can we talk about some of the numbers here? Because I want to start, maybe seeing if there's a potential plan here.

[00:58:21] Samantha: Yeah.

[00:58:22] Ramit: All right. Your debt, you told me that you have the car and the loan. How much is the interest rate on your student loans?

[00:58:29] Samantha: About 8%.

[00:58:30] Ramit: Okay. And the car.

[00:58:31] Samantha: 1.99.

[00:58:33] Ramit: Okay. And how about the house? What is the interest rate on the house?

[00:58:38] Kevin: 2.2.

[00:58:40] Ramit: Wow. 2.2? That's low.

[00:58:42] Kevin: Yeah.

[00:58:43] Ramit: Okay. All right. That's pretty cool. Samantha, how long until your debt is paid off?

[00:58:49] Samantha: The car loan was a 60-month loan. The student loan debt, I'd have to start paying it first.

[00:58:56] Ramit: You're not paying it.

[00:58:57] Samantha: I am not. I paid on it for a year or so after I graduated, but it was accruing interest at a rate higher than the payments I could afford to make on it, so it seemed pointless. And now the minimum payments are $778. And it just feels like I'd have to sacrifice. I couldn't go on three trips a year.

[00:59:20] And I don't mind not going on three trips a year, but I don't want Kevin's lifestyle to suffer because of me. At the same time, I know it's very important to him that I pay it off. So I'm just not sure what to prioritize.

[00:59:33] Ramit: You ever talked about this?

[00:59:35] Samantha: And about that much detail.

[00:59:37] Ramit: Should we do it right now?

[00:59:39] Samantha: Yeah.

[00:59:40] Ramit: Go ahead.

[00:59:41] Samantha: I have $78,000 in student loan debt, and I'm not sure if I can start making payments on it without it negatively affecting our lifestyle.

[00:59:53] Kevin: I totally understand that. But how much do you think you could pay? And we don't have to have three vacations a year. We could do smaller vacations or that sort of thing.

[01:00:04] Samantha: Well, with the current student loan situation, the option is $778 or no dollars. That is the minimum. I appreciate that you're willing to sacrifice some of the vacations. I have considered cutting back on like some of the house cleaning, trying to minimize of my subscription spending, make the student loan payment more palatable, and not affect us as much in our lifestyle. But I haven't made a move to do so yet because I would like to look at it together and see what is reasonable for both of us to eliminate.

[01:00:43] Ramit: Okay, cool. The joint stuff that you do, the vacations to eating out, that kind of stuff, it seems like there's a lot of murky assumptions being made here. Like, we can't cut back. Kevin doesn't want to cut back. Have y'all just really openly talked about, how much does each of you care about it?

[01:01:01] Kevin: Not entirely. I don't mind paying more for some of the vacations, especially ones I want to go to if that money actually goes towards the debt and not towards hobbies or animals.

[01:01:14] Samantha: That feels good to hear. I definitely appreciate the generosity.

[01:01:19] Ramit: How do you feel about not getting more pets?

[01:01:22] Samantha: That's a fair point because I didn't have plans to get any of these animals, but then I just got them. So yeah, I don't have any plans to get any pets. I do think that I have a responsibility to the ones I have taken on to care for them properly. And I think that has been a bone of contention as well.

[01:01:43] Ramit: You spend about 10 to $15,000 a year on pets. If your pets are non-negotiable and that amount of spend is going to be what it is, then we can work around it. But there's a finite amount of money. If I put it very plainly to you, Samantha, and I said, you can't go on the number of vacations you've been going on because you chose instead to spend money on pets, how do you feel about that?

[01:02:06] Samantha: That is the bed I made, and I will lie in it.

[01:02:09] Ramit: Kevin, how do you feel about that?

[01:02:11] Kevin: I'm not going to tell Samantha to get rid of any of the animals. I just don't want to get anymore. It's choices that I would not have made, but they're here now.

[01:02:20] Ramit: What would you do if you were in charge of her finances? What would you do differently?

[01:02:25] Kevin: I would not have gotten the animals, but that's beside the point. Outside of that, it probably makes sense cutting down on the vacations, built into that everything else bucket.

[01:02:35] Ramit: Samantha's guilt-free spending is at 51%. That's way, way higher than the maximum of 35% that I typically recommend. Now, you all can afford that, but that's because Samantha, you're not paying rent. So your fixed costs are artificially low. You also don't have any savings. So Samantha, what would you do?

[01:02:56] Samantha: I would increase my savings and investment percentages and work on the debt and be really intentional about the vacations that we take, and save for them ahead of time.

[01:03:09] Ramit: Would you be willing to do that?

[01:03:11] Samantha: Yes.

[01:03:12] Ramit: Cool. Kevin, would you be willing to do that?

[01:03:14] Kevin: Yeah, I think it does make sense. I think previously with vacations and stuff, my very selfish thought is just like, I have the money in the bank, so what does it matter if we put it on the credit card. I'll pay it off later. But that really makes it hard for planning. It will make it a lot easier to plan and really know how much can be spent for a vacation while still paying off the debt.

[01:03:37] Ramit: I think that you have several layers of complexity around each other, like an onion with layers. One layer is just the way that you were raised. That's the outermost layer, the way you were both raised with money. Not particularly healthy, and not a lot of guidance on some of the things that we're dealing with here. In fact, sometimes anti-guidance. Like, if you have the money, spend it quick.

[01:04:01] The next thing is, because you live together, but you are not married or have plans to get married, that adds a layer of complexity. There's just this big uncertainty. If you told me we want to get married, but debt needs to be paid off first, amazing. We can make a plan and knock that freaking thing out, no problem.

[01:04:20] But it makes it just one more layer of complexity if there's just this uncertainty out here. Then you have differences in income. But you also have differences in lifestyle. One person likes to take more vacations. The other likes to spend a ton of money on pets. And then at the center of the whole onion is that the two of you don't talk about money, and you just make a lot of assumptions.

[01:04:44] So you've created, and you now exist in a system where it is incredibly difficult to work against all of these things, like swimming against the ocean current. And what we see here is the predictable outcome. You two are separate. You both feel bad about money. You don't feel heard, even though you're making almost $400,000 household income. It just doesn't feel good. And what's the solution? It's probably not to make more money.

[01:05:11] Samantha: Yeah.

[01:05:12] Ramit: What do you think the solution is?

[01:05:14] Samantha: I think if we had a unified goal that we could work together towards. But I don't know that there is one. Because to me, in my mind I'm like, "My ultimate goal would be we move somewhere else where we can have this house that we both like together." But that doesn't really align with retiring early because presumably you need a paid off house to do that. Not to say that's the only ultimate goal that can exist, but it feels out of sync, I guess.

[01:05:44] Ramit: Have you talked about this? It seems extremely important. Where do we want to end up?

[01:05:49] Samantha: Every time we go to Seattle, we're like, "We'd love to end up here." I would love to live there by the time I'm 40. I don't know that he has any intention of moving ever.

[01:06:01] Ramit: You would like to live there by the time you're 40?

[01:06:03] Samantha: Yes.

[01:06:04] Ramit: You are currently 36 years old.

[01:06:06] Samantha: Yes.

[01:06:08] Ramit: Where on your CSP would I see evidence of you planning to move in four years?

[01:06:12] Samantha: You would not see that, but I still would like to.

[01:06:17] Ramit: Same way that Kevin just looks at Zillow stuff but doesn't actually plan to go there is the same thing I'm hearing from you.

[01:06:22] Samantha: Yeah. Fair enough.

[01:06:23] Ramit: It's just a dream. I don't mind dreams, but we actually have the ability to turn dreams into reality, especially with your income. Four years is not realistic. There's no way you move to a much more expensive area. Even just financially speaking, it's just not possible. I actually think this is useful. To close doors on certain things is a good thing because it makes us more focused on the remaining open doors.

[01:06:46] Right now, it's like you all have kept so many doors open that you're not even tiptoeing into one. We could get married. We could not. One of us could retire early, the other might not. We could go to Seattle, but not. So we just stay stuck and paralyzed.

[01:07:01] Samantha: Yes, I agree with that.

[01:07:03] Kevin: Yeah.

[01:07:04] Ramit: Is it uncomfortable to close doors for both of you?

[01:07:08] Samantha: Yes. Thinking about what you just said, I almost had a visceral reaction, like, that's not true.

[01:07:15] Ramit: Right. And what about for you, Kevin?

[01:07:17] Kevin: Yeah. Closing doors is a very hard thing to do. Hadn't thought of it that way before, but yeah.

[01:07:23] Ramit: What's going through your head right now, Kevin?

[01:07:24] Kevin: As you get older, things get cut off, and you just have to focus in more on what you really want and not having all those open doors, because there's only so much you can do.

[01:07:35] Ramit: Yeah. And I would rather that we accept reality and then embrace the season of life we are in and plan so that the next season is even better. If I were you, I would start to practice the skill of dreaming in specific scenarios. So like we take 10 minutes and we're just going to go down this path and see what happens.

[01:07:58] And we're going to go all the way to the end. And then we can write it down, and then we can sleep on it, and tomorrow we'll do a different path. No commitments. I would say, "You know what? I love you. I actually want us to get married. It doesn't have to be today, but within three years, I would like for us to be married." Okay, now watch me go down this path and then notice how you feel as I talk.

[01:08:15] I want to be married because I love you. I know I want to be with you. I hear you. You're nervous about money. I'm nervous about money. We should definitely do a prenup. Premarital debt, all that stuff, we'll sort it out. I would like for us to have most of our money joint, and then we'll each have some individual money that we can each spend on whatever we want.

[01:08:36] I plan to work. You plan to work. Our household income will be approximately this much. This is what will happen to the debt. And going forward, we will plan this much percentage for retirement because we would like to retire by the age of blank. How does that strike both of you?

[01:08:54] Samantha: Framed as a hypothetical, I like the idea of thinking about different scenarios, and maybe it will help us decide which one we like the most.

[01:09:02] Ramit: Anybody feel any like guttural reactions where you're just like, I don't like that.

[01:09:05] Kevin: No, I like that. Instead of just thinking of like, oh, that would be cool.

[01:09:11] Ramit: Yeah.

[01:09:11] Kevin: Actually, pushing the door open a little bit and walking in and seeing what it would be like.

[01:09:15] Ramit: Yeah, that's a great metaphor. Walk in, look around. If it's a clothing store, try it on. How do we like this freaking thing? If we don't like it, we could put it back. Let's do another one real quickly. In this one, "I actually love the way that our relationship is set up. I do not want to get married, but I do think we probably need to make a few changes in order for us to live together so I would like the following to happen.

[01:09:40] "I would like for me to pay the debt off within X number of years. I would like for us to figure out what is more fair for our housing expense. Right now it's unbalanced. If we need to speak to a lawyer about what other couples do as they live in the same place, but one person owns it, we should go do that.

[01:09:59] "I think that in the short term. we, or you, or me, won't be able to go on as many vacations, so we need to find a solution for that. Either you will have to pay more if you want to go, or we won't go to as many vacations. And the debt's going to be paid off in this many years. We should talk about retirement.

[01:10:18] "One person's going to have the ability to retire at the age of blank. The other person's not going to be able to retire at that age. What does that look like? Because I don't like the idea of one of us being retired and the other is still working for 12 more years. That just seems weird to me." Okay, let me pause. How did that strike you? Samantha first.

[01:10:35] Samantha: I think it's important to flesh out the details of how we're going to proceed, whether or not that involves being married. Because our lifestyle is dependent on the other person's money, even if they're not combined.

[01:10:48] Ramit: You're right about that. You can have a very Rich Life together, married or unmarried. Does not matter. It will be easier if you are married, but you could make it work unmarried. I think that's a really good assessment. Kevin?

[01:11:00] Kevin: It really helps to think about specifics. I do tend to start dreaming and not really thinking through the details. So really getting those details down so that can really see what that looks like is really helpful.

[01:11:13] Ramit: Okay, cool. It seems to me that one of the things that we can do right now is deal with this debt because a lot of other things are contingent upon the debt.

[01:11:24] Samantha: Yes.

[01:11:25] Ramit: All right. So let's talk about the debt. The debt is $78,000?

[01:11:30] Samantha: Correct.

[01:11:32] Ramit: So you said the minimum is 780 a month, but Samantha, you're currently paying 180 a month.

[01:11:36] Samantha: No, that's something else.

[01:11:39] Ramit: Oh, you're paying nothing.

[01:11:40] Samantha: Yeah, it's deferred. 45 of it is a payment on Perkins loan, so I guess that is a student loan. And then back in 2022, I did my taxes wrong, so unfortunately, I am paying $137 to the IRS every month.

[01:11:56] Ramit: Till when?

[01:11:57] Samantha: It was only a total of $4,000, and I think it's down to 3,500. But I've just been paying the minimum.

[01:12:05] Ramit: Why do you pay the minimum?

[01:12:06] Samantha: I want to have the obligation met for the month and be able to spend the money on whatever else it needs to get spent on, pets or vacation, or whatever.

[01:12:18] Ramit: Can I give you some straight talk?

[01:12:20] Samantha: Of course.

[01:12:21] Ramit: Somebody who makes $150,000 doesn't talk like that.

[01:12:24] Samantha: Well, this one does.

[01:12:26] Ramit: Hopefully not after talking to me. Because one of the goals I have for the people I speak to is I always want to understand where you came from. How did you grow up? What were the lessons you learned about money? What I have found is that people often can do quite well in their careers. You've done extremely well. But often their earnings increase faster than their money psychology does.

[01:12:49] Samantha: Yeah, definitely.

[01:12:51] Ramit: And that's happened here. You're making tons of money, but you're paying minimums on debt. You're not even paying student loan debt right now. And more is going to towards pigeons than student loans. That's actually not acceptable for somebody making $150,000.

[01:13:05] Samantha: When you phrase it like that--

[01:13:07] Ramit: Right now you're out of sync, and I want you to elevate. So let's say if we took what you told me, $780 a month for your debt, guess how many years to pay it off?

[01:13:19] Samantha: 20.

[01:13:20] Ramit: No, just under 14 years. But let's say you increased it. Let's say you paid $1,500 a month. How long do you think it would take you?

[01:13:30] Samantha: 6 years.

[01:13:31] Ramit: 5.3 years.

[01:13:32] Samantha: Oh.

[01:13:33] Ramit: To me, 5.3 years for where you are in life, for your age, for any ability to make future changes, that's not that much. What do you think? You look skeptical.

[01:13:44] Samantha: It just comes back to my fear of like, I don't want to negatively impact Kevin and have him feel like he can't do things without me. I don't mind not taking vacations for five years or taking less, but I don't want him to not, and I don't think he will go without me

[01:14:06] Ramit: Didn't he say a few minutes ago he's cool to cut the vacations down?

[01:14:10] Samantha: To zero? It feels like you would have to be zero at $1,500 a month.

[01:14:15] Ramit: Tell you what, why don't we find out? Kevin wants the debt paid off. Right, Kevin?

[01:14:19] Kevin: Yes.

[01:14:20] Ramit: Okay. Samantha, do you want the debt paid off?

[01:14:23] Samantha: I do.

[01:14:24] Ramit: All right. So you should theoretically be like, "I want to put $2,500 a month towards this debt. Why worry about the vacations? And Kevin, let him deal with that."

[01:14:35] Samantha: You know what? Fair enough. If Kevin wants to go on vacation, Kevin can talk to me about going on vacation.

[01:14:41] Ramit: Bingo. Yes. That's the type of energy we need to bring. It's like, look, I have a goal. I need to [Bleep] make some decisions. So let me first figure out what it takes and then we can worry about all his vacation stuff later. And if Kevin really wants to go, ah, let him figure out some stuff. Okay, cool.

[01:14:56] So 1,500 bucks a month, I want to find out where would that number come from? So what I want you to do is to help me identify that. Now look, you might end up deciding it should be 1,300 or 1,800. But let's just say 1,500 for now because five years is good.

[01:15:12] Samantha: I'm not taking on any more rehab and rescue cases with the animals, so that spending should decrease.

[01:15:23] Ramit: Where on the CSP is that? Here, 588?

[01:15:25] Samantha: Pets, yeah.

[01:15:26] Ramit: That should go down?

[01:15:27] Samantha: It should go down.

[01:15:29] Ramit: Aren't your dogs getting older?

[01:15:31] Samantha: Yeah. But eventually that'll be dead.

[01:15:33] Ramit: America, I didn't say it. I did not say that.

[01:15:37] Samantha: No, one is 15, and one is 10.

[01:15:42] Ramit: You know what? Thank you. Thank you for making me seem like the kinder one around pets today. I never imagined that would happen with a owner of eight pets, but God bless. Now that we've talked about your dead pets, what's next?

[01:15:55] Samantha: I have considered cutting the housekeeping to once a month instead of twice a month.

[01:16:01] Ramit: Can we do something here? I find that it's hard to just pick all these random things and then figure out how much and all this stuff. So you know what I do when I'm trying to make a big decision financially? I just put the freaking money in there, and then I work backwards. So I'm like, "Hey, I need to put 1,500 bucks a month towards debt payments." All right. So let's see what happened. If we go down, naturally your guilt-free spending dropped 30%. Do you see that?

[01:16:30] Samantha: Yes.

[01:16:31] Ramit: You still have $2,000 a month in guilt free spending? What do you think about that?

[01:16:37] Samantha: We should eat out less. 

[01:16:38] Ramit: How much should we drop that by?

[01:16:39] Samantha: I think we can cut it in half to 425.

[01:16:43] Ramit: That's for you specifically?

[01:16:45] Samantha: That's total, I guess.

[01:16:46] Ramit: All right. So let's say 200 for eating out. What else do you need per month for guilt-free spending?

[01:16:51] Samantha: I get my nails done.

[01:16:53] Ramit: How much? It's fine.

[01:16:55] Samantha: It's 120.

[01:16:55] Ramit: Okay, 120. What else?

[01:16:58] Samantha: I would guess I spend between 100 and 150 on books.

[01:17:02] Ramit: Okay. What else?

[01:17:03] Samantha: Starbucks, probably 100.

[01:17:06] Ramit: Let's add a couple of hundred extra bucks for stuff you forgot. How about that? All right. Can you just guess how much all that adds up to?

[01:17:12] Samantha: 1,000.

[01:17:13] Ramit: Less. $770. What does that tell you?

[01:17:18] Samantha: It's doable.

[01:17:20] Ramit: It's more than doable. You have over $2,000 allocated for guilt-free spending. What this tells me is that so much of your spending is mindless. It's just random [Bleep]. If we actually adopt this plan, you can accomplish a lot of stuff. You can save. You can invest. You can pay off debt rapidly.

[01:17:41] If you went full optimized, you had your numbers dialed in, it was all automatic, you're going to be more than fine. You're actually investing a lot of money every month. It's almost $2,000 a month. Did you know that?

[01:17:55] Samantha: Yes. But that's recent, but I'm to continue to do it.

[01:17:58] Ramit: That's a lot. If I were you, I would feel really good about that. We can actually calculate out how much you will have. That's a lot of money to be investing, and it will probably go up over time.

[01:18:09] So why I'm saying this is I want you to not think of yourself as needing to catch up, but rather I'm going to make a plan that aggressively invests, aggressively pays off debt, and I'm going to leave myself some room to have some fun. I'm going to get my nails done. I'm going to have some coffee. Cool. I'm going to eat out. But I'm also going to be hitting all those goals. Right?

[01:18:31] Samantha: Okay.

[01:18:31] Ramit: All right. So you got 2,100 bucks left in guilt-free spending, which tells me, because all of your spending is currently $770, let's add in a little bit more. How much are you going to spend on your next vacation?

[01:18:45] Samantha: 3,000. That does not include the hotel though, because the hotels are always free, because I always have the points.

[01:18:52] Ramit: So you are going to spend 3,000 on the next trip.

[01:18:56] Samantha: Yes.

[01:18:57] Ramit: That's fine. So is Kevin going to spend 3,000 as well?

[01:19:00] Samantha: Oh, no, I was thinking that was combined.

[01:19:02] Ramit: Oh, so 1,500 for you.

[01:19:04] Samantha: Yeah.

[01:19:05] Ramit: All right. Any reason why y'all don't do it proportionally?

[01:19:09] Samantha: I've never brought that up because I don't pay any of the mortgage. So it makes sense that I pay 50-50.

[01:19:15] Ramit: Why not say that and just be like, "Hey, I really appreciate you paying the mortgage." By the way, I wanted to let you know, normally proportional would probably be more fair, but I think it's right for me to pay a little bit more because I don't pay for the mortgage."

[01:19:28] Samantha: I didn't think of it that way.

[01:19:30] Ramit: Yeah. And did you see Kevin's reaction when I was just talking? He's loving it. That feels fairer. Right, Kevin?

[01:19:37] Kevin: Yeah.

[01:19:38] Ramit: All right, cool. So you're going to spend 1,500 bucks over the next year on one vacation. All right. 125 a month. See how I'm already putting money aside? Boom. So this is 770 bucks. I'll put aside another 150. This all adds up to $920, all the stuff we talked about with the nails and the coffee and the trip. How much money do you currently see in the conscious spending plan under guilt-free spending?

[01:20:02] Samantha: 2,172.

[01:20:04] Ramit: So you have $1,000 extra per month to allocate. What do you want to do with it?

[01:20:10] Samantha: I think you need long-term emergency fund.

[01:20:13] Ramit: I agree. Where do you want to put it? All here?

[01:20:17] Samantha: Maybe 900 in the emergency fund and 100 for gifts, because inevitably I'll spend $1,000 over the course of the year on gifts.

[01:20:25] Ramit: Okay, fine. Your CSP now says you have $1,172 for guilt-free spending . The number is 16%, which I actually think sounds very appropriate for somebody who has $78,000 of debt at 8%. You still need to live, but 16% is about right. You still got all the money going towards subscriptions and pets. No changes in that. You are now paying 1,500 bucks a month towards debt, which will reduce that debt to zero in about five years. When is your car paid off?

[01:21:02] Samantha: Four years from this month.

[01:21:05] Ramit: So after that payment is done, that's an extra 700 bucks. What would you do with that money?

[01:21:10] Samantha: I would split it between investments and savings.

[01:21:14] Ramit: Great answer. Love it. Perfect. And then, of course, when your debt is paid off, which is a bit down the road, but it will happen faster than you think, that is all a lot of cash every single month. A lot. And you can really start to think about bigger plans.

[01:21:27] If you're like, "Hey, in one of my scenarios, in five years my debt is going to be paid off. What I'm going to do is I'm going to redirect 75% of that and put it in this savings account. And then after two years, I will have this much, and we can use it to do that." That is how we start to use our money to really create a crisp plan. Loving it. Kevin, how do you feel about that plan?

[01:21:50] Kevin: It's just good to see it on paper. It's manageable. It can be done, and there's still money to do things, so yeah, I like it a lot.

[01:21:57] Ramit: I agree. I think it's a solid plan, and I think it's very achievable. It does need both of you to be aligned. And this is where I think there's some potential difficulties. I see a couple of things that are slightly concerning to me. Kevin, read off your guilt-free spending per month and hers.

[01:22:15] Kevin: 4,084 versus 1,172.

[01:22:20] Ramit: One of you has $4,000 a month to do whatever you want while the other has $1,100 a month? It seems like it could be a problem.

[01:22:28] Kevin: Yeah.

[01:22:29] Ramit: I wouldn't be surprised if one person gets resentful when one person has four times the amount of discretionary money every single month, and you both like to travel. So let's just make a plan for it. You both like to travel. How do you want to handle it?

[01:22:44] Kevin: If there's a vacation that I really want to go on, I can put significantly more towards it. Because obviously Samantha's putting that money into the debt, which is something that I want her to be able to do. And since I do have that extra guilt-free spending, if I want to go on the vacation and I want Samantha to go with me, then it makes sense for me to put more towards it.

[01:23:04] Samantha: I appreciate that offer. That's very nice, and I'm certain there will be an opportunity for me to take him up on that. I also don't mind if he goes on vacation by himself. I like to be home a little bit more than he does. So anticipating maybe one vacation together and one vacation separate, just knowing that that's going to happen and that's the plan would be helpful.

[01:23:26] Kevin: I think that makes sense.

[01:23:28] Ramit: I love the specificity of that, Samantha. I love that you said your concept, which is like, it's okay if he goes, and here's how I would envision it. One on his own, one with me. That's awesome. What I would love for both of you to do, I think it would help move things along, is for one person to just propose something.

[01:23:43] When one person proposes something, the other is usually pretty agreeable, I've found with the two of you. But the first person that seems to be afraid to make that step. What you just did there was an awesome example. Just like, "Hey, one on your own, one together."

[01:23:57] I think another way to look at it is Samantha can just say, I have $1,800 per year for a vacation. I can't wait to go on a trip with you, but anything more than that, either I can't go, or I'm going to ask you to pay.

[01:24:12] Samantha: Yeah.

[01:24:13] Ramit: Samantha, how do you feel about that?

[01:24:15] Samantha: Hurts the pride a little to ask for help. But knowing that he's open to that makes it sting a little less.

[01:24:23] Ramit: Look, the fact is, Samantha, Kevin makes more than you, and he has less debt than you. And so it's not realistic for you to expect to spend the same at parody with him. That actually puts you in a bad financial situation. And Kevin, it's not fair for you to expect her to be able to spend as much as you do. She can't do that.

[01:24:46] So in my opinion, the higher earner has the responsibility of bringing up issues like this and saying, "Look, I love traveling with you." I don't think it's fair for me to expect you to be able to spend the same amount that I do. We are in this as a team, and I don't want to financially stretch you in order for us to go to Greece." That is your responsibility, Kevin, as the higher earner. How do you feel about that?

[01:25:14] Kevin: Totally makes sense. And I think seeing the money and seeing the CSP and seeing where things are going, it really helps me to be like, yes, I want to go on vacation. I want Samantha to go with me. So. I'll pay 80%, or whatever it is. That totally makes sense.

[01:25:26] Samantha: I feel as though, I don't even know what the word is, like he already has the vacation money. So it just feels like one of us is doing the exercise and one of us is pity doing the exercise.

[01:25:40] Ramit: I think what you're bringing up is actually the ultimate crux of this, which is what you wrote in your application. The idea that you feel behind. You feel that even if you had a million dollars, you will never be able to compare to what Kevin has accumulated and will accumulate. I believe you. The amount that you save and invest will never be as much as Kevin. Now what?

[01:26:05] Samantha: I don't have as strong of a drive to retire early. So I don't mind saving for more years. But will he ever view me as a partner in finance that he respects enough to combine things more if my behavior exhibits that?

[01:26:23] Ramit: Let's hear from Kevin.

[01:26:24] Kevin: That's what we're doing today, where it's like we have a plan, and both working towards the same thing, and we're both being thoughtful about our money. It's not about getting to a certain number. It's about a plan. I don't see you as like not being on the same level as me or something like that. I've been lucky I was able to sell my house for a lot more than I bought it for, and that's how I paid off my student loans. So I can't fault somebody if they're not at the same level as I'm at.

[01:26:47] Ramit: The truth is that if the two of you keep your money separate for the rest of your lives, Kevin's going to have a lot more money than Samantha. That's just life. That's not going to change. I don't think, Samantha, you're very savvy. I don't think you are saying, is there a magical way for me to somehow make millions of dollars more than I have made so that we are "equal" in the amount that we have in net worth? Correct?

[01:27:13] Samantha: Yes.

[01:27:13] Ramit: Okay. Kevin, what is she really saying?

[01:27:17] Kevin: Even if the numbers on the page aren't equal, that we are going through life together as equals and not as imbalanced. I don't know.

[01:27:26] Ramit: This is personal to me because my wife and I have had exactly this conversation. I had more money when we got married. I had been saving and investing for a long time. Can you imagine, Kevin, how it feels that you might be putting aside $24,000 a year like Samantha is, but it will not equal out to what you have, Kevin?

[01:27:46] Kevin: I could see how that would not make you feel great. It would make you feel unequal , inadequate maybe. Even if that's not how the situation really is.

[01:27:55] Ramit: Samantha, how does it make you feel?

[01:27:58] Samantha: Ashamed a little bit and definitely small. And in a conversation about money, my opinion would matter less. And I don't have a like right to ask to have those conversations about money and the specifics of his as well. Recently that came up because his workplace is gradually reduction in forcing everybody.

[01:28:25] And I was like, "Should we behave as though we know you're going to get fired and maybe set aside more money?" That conversation went nowhere and I was like, "Oh, I guess I'm not really in a position to tell somebody that they should save more money in anticipation of getting laid off when I have so little money saved myself."

[01:28:45] Kevin: My communication obviously can be improved. Because after that conversation I was looking at what I should do to increase my savings rate. So I did. I appreciated you bringing that up and thinking that through.

[01:28:58] Ramit: You took her opinions on money and you actually changed something on your end because you valued what she had to say.

[01:29:04] Kevin: Right. Yeah.

[01:29:05] Ramit: And did you tell her that?

[01:29:06] Kevin: No.

[01:29:07] Ramit: Wow.

[01:29:08] Kevin: Yeah.

[01:29:09] Ramit: Is it just me, or am I the only one who wants to get credit for doing good stuff? Take the credit guys. When you do something good, let them know. They love it. Tell them. Get the big hug.

[01:29:21] Samantha: That's what I've been trying to say. Like, look what I invested today in affect. We've talked about affect a little.

[01:29:29] Ramit: Listen, Kevin, to what she's saying. She's approaching you, and she's looking for some congratulations, for some acknowledgement. It is a terrible way to have to live, especially in a loving, intimate relationship. So Kevin, what she's saying when she says, "Look, I invested in the stock market," is like, "Please, notice me. I'm actually doing something here." And for you to give a flat response is hurtful.

[01:29:53] Let me propose a different way. It doesn't mean that you are less than me because I have a bigger investment portfolio. We are a team, and I want you to be knowledgeable about money. I want us to both contribute to our finances. But you're also better at other things. And I want to learn from that.

[01:30:15] I want you to be the leader on some of those things. You are great at those things. I can't do that alone. I could do my finances solo, but I'm not trying to do it solo. I'm trying to be with you. Kevin, do you see the type of culture that you will both have to create in your household around money, but with you probably being the primary person to drive it?

[01:30:36] Kevin: Yeah, definitely. And I think much better acknowledgement on my part when Samantha is making an effort, which definitely has, especially the last couple of months-- has been really making an effort. And I do appreciate it. I just don't express that well.

[01:30:49] Ramit: Yeah. You will have to.

[01:30:51] Kevin: Yeah.

[01:30:52] Ramit: You will have to because as Samantha's telling you, what you're doing is not enough.

[01:30:55] Kevin: Yeah.

[01:30:56] Ramit: And she really needs it. And I would too, honestly, in a relationship. There's something that I'm really proud of and I tell my wife, I don't want her to just be like, "Cool." That would be really hard. So I think what you're asking for Samantha is very fair. I do think it's great. You've made some changes to your finances.

[01:31:12] I think even today you've been super receptive to some of the changes that we've made. What you have reached under any circumstance, financially speaking, is very impressive. Your incomes, great. To put it in the context of how you grew up with money, even more extraordinary.

[01:31:29] What's missing is the teamwork, a teamwork that allows you two to have really candid conversations. "Hey, what are we thinking?" "I feel a little resentful about the pets. I was hoping that because I'm paying all the rent, that your debt would get paid off. And what I'm looking for is a plan."

[01:31:48] And similarly, "Hey, I want us to be a team. I know that we're going to have different incomes, different net worth, but I need acknowledgement of how far I've come and how I'm putting this plan into place." That's the kind of stuff that the two of you can work on, and probably with the help of a therapist, could really thrive.

[01:32:07] When we think about today's conversation, what stood out to each of you most?

[01:32:12] Samantha: I think that it was with some communication, I actually can get the things from my partner that I have been looking to get, but not getting, because I haven't been talking about them.

[01:32:28] Ramit: Love that. Kevin?

[01:32:30] Kevin: Honestly, just how good I feel about it, and how having a better plan just makes me feel better about our finances.

[01:32:40] Ramit: I love that. I just did a quick calculation, Samantha, what you would have if you retired at 65 and you didn't increase any more than you're currently doing. Do you have a sense of how much you'd have by then?

[01:32:52] Samantha: Not even a little.

[01:32:53] Ramit: Do you want to guess?

[01:32:54] Samantha: 800,000.

[01:32:57] Ramit: Your mind is about to be blown. So in the bank, if you just keep investing from now $24,000 a year until you're 65, you would have $3.9 million.

[01:33:09] Samantha: Nice. Love to hear it.

[01:33:11] Ramit: That's a lot of money.

[01:33:13] Samantha: Yeah.

[01:33:14] Ramit: And I know you can even invest more over time as you off those loans and all that stuff.

[Narration]

[01:33:19] Ramit: When I look at Samantha and Kevin, I see two high earners who have built an impressive financial life, at least on paper. But to truly understand what's going on, you have to look underneath the numbers. In reality, if we go beneath the big numbers, there's a lot of friction.

[01:33:36] There's two avoiders who can only avoid the way they do because of this high income. And they have carried that dynamic for years. They've embraced it. Today, for the first time, I think they started breaking it. They faced the debt. They named what matters. They finally said out loud what they've both been tiptoeing around. We don't talk about money.

[01:33:58] That's not a budgeting problem. No app is going to fix that. This is a communication problem. And if they can make progress on their communication, they can start to talk more openly about the numbers and ultimately what they both really want.

[01:34:15] Now to help them, my team connected Samantha and Kevin with our friends at Ultraspeaking, a company that helps people communicate with confidence, even in uncomfortable moments. Because if they can learn to say what they want and they can ask better questions, then they can stay in these challenging conversations even more, talking about debt and vacations and retirement.

[01:34:38] They've made real progress, but they have a long way to go. So let's see what happens next when they finally start saying what they really mean. Let's check out their follow-ups now.

[01:34:47] Kevin: Biggest surprise, how much work we need on our communication around money. I was somewhat aware of that, but I think the discussion really brought that into the front. And just how much work we need in that area.

[01:34:59] Biggest takeaways, some of our difficulties, I think, have really been around not defining how we want our money future to look. We have these ideas, but we never really get to the point where we flush them out enough to really understand, I guess, repercussions or feasibility.

[01:35:15] And I really liked your idea of taking each of those as doors to open, explore a little bit, and then really decide if that's the door that just needs to be closed. So that was really helpful and looking forward to working through that.

[01:35:28] Specific change we've made, we do have a money meeting scheduled for this week. I think part of that is going to be each time taking one of those doors, exploring them, and then together deciding where we want to go, whether that's going to be closing that door or whether we explore it further. So again, appreciate you talking with us. It was really great, and I took a lot away from it. So thanks.

[01:35:54] Samantha: It's been a few weeks since we recorded the podcast. I have made some real changes. I cut back on streaming services, housekeeping, and I even started making homemade pet food toppers. I was spending at least $150 on the fancy pet food topper before. So I canceled that, and now I'm making it myself. It's fun, and it's a fraction of the cost.

[01:36:18] I've also been funding investments and saving before my guilt-free spending, and I've been making aggressive payments on my IRS debt. So I'll be ready when my student loan deferral ends. We had our first money meeting, and it went surprisingly well. I was nervous, but I used a sample agenda from ChatGPT, and we're changing that to meet our needs.

[01:36:41] It felt really good to sit down with Kevin and talk through things. And I'm actually really looking forward to the next one next week. So thank you again for the conversation. It gave me the push I needed, and I will definitely be sending you a thank you note in six years when I pay off those student loans.

[01:36:55] Ramit: And here's what they had to say about their experience with Ultraspeaking.

[01:37:00] Kevin: It was a really great session. One of the most important things I learned out of it was just really not having to have the perfect answer in every situation. I think a lot of times I claim up because I'm searching for the absolute perfect answer to a question, when really a good answer is, fine.

[01:37:19] So not letting the perfect be the enemy of the good. Something that I think is applicable in a lot of different areas, not just relationship with money. So I found it very helpful-- I think a great resource.

[01:37:32] Samantha: Ultraspeaking session yesterday with [Inaudible], and I was pleasantly surprised. I like that they use games to improve communication and confidence in communication. The games were challenging. They definitely put you on the spot, but they were also fun and a little bit silly.

[01:37:50] One of the biggest takeaways for me was realizing that it's not important to necessarily have the perfect answer. I also discovered I am not terrible at public speaking, but I just need to bring the same confidence I have at work to the communications I have around difficult personal topics such as money.

[01:38:09] Another valuable lesson that I gleaned from the session was to not break character. When I'm communicating, I have a tendency to make a little self-deprecating comment, and that doesn't really serve anybody. So I'm going to stop doing that.

[01:38:24] Ramit: If you found this helpful, here's the perfect next episode to watch right now.